General Balance [69q]

[alyssandra]

It seems to be that there is an imbalance of hero power lately, because we still suffer from some of the same issues as previous versions.

One of the problems is that some heroes have skills that are tricky to aim, which doesn't necessarily diminish their usefulness, but generally makes them harder and less 'reliable' to play for some.

This wouldn't be a bad thing, but then there are heroes with more trivial aiming styles that often do the same, if not more, damage (most often in an AoE) than those with harder aimed skills (ex. Namek's aiming and AoE vs. Stumpy's... Kuku's ease vs. Maw). Then there are heroes like Heretic with a lot of skills that seem to go against everything RoW stands for (trivial aiming, lots of 'click and forget,' little satisfaction in playstyle).

Second, there is no real defined early, mid, and late game. This is a huge issue, because most heroes that are supposed to be weak early and thrive late, have no weakness whatsoever and instead thrive throughout the entire game.

This is seen in heroes like Rasputin, who has no known weakness (I don't think magic damage is a valid weakness, because everyone is susceptible to it in lanes since no one starts with bonus resistances). He has a ranged form, built in block, an AoE root, an AoE snare, a double hitting poison nuke (does too much to towers too) and heavy pushing power. Since he has no issue in lane and then later on with killing heroes, he becomes extremely anti-fun to play against. No matter how much he is outplayed or "shut down" he is always a driving force in the game. 

This seems to be a common theme as of late, where actions early on in the game are overshadowed by sheer hero picks and ease of skill usage. Kuku is another hero similiar to Rasputin, but he is at least melee in the lane. He can be shut down and countered, but once he gets his inevitable item after Comets, the kills come easy. There's no current way to stop this from happening. 

Third, heroes with support styled skill sets deal too much damage. I know there is a debate of sorts in regards to roles in RoW, but there are definitely heroes with skillsets that suggest that they require the aids of allies in order to accomplish goals. Let's group Judicator, Psychic, Heretic and Flisk in this category.

Should Judi really be able to be an unkillable tank, with an ultimate that has virtually no cooldown, be the best pusher in this game, and have an easy to aim shield that has potential to deal 600+ AoE damage? While also sporting a heal and another nuke, auras, and AoE silences? When support heroes become too strong in terms of their own damage and independance, it causes extreme imbalance because they also help their allies become OP. This was seen a lot in League of Legends, for example.

Should Flisk be able to go on 14 kill streaks, while also being able to swap allies out of danger, and giving them invisibility and passive item bonuses?

Should Heretic be able to disable people for 4-5+ seconds, hex them, and summon a perfect damage dealing minion all the while auto attacking with incredible damage thanks to Ricochet? The list goes on.

Their skillsets in nature aren't the problem, it's mostly the numbers. We have this idea that every hero must be amazing on their own, but if this is allowed to happen, we get imbalanced gameplay. The point is, there needs to be compromises in skillsets. Since Namek has 4 opportunities to deal AoE damage in a "shockwave" type fashion, the numbers need to not be as high. It can start with simple changes like this.

[Grumbletok]

I agree with just about everything said here.

ATM, RoW is a game that is supposedly all about skillshots and unique mechanics, however, those abilities are not rewarded any higher than those that aren't conditional. I believe I brought up this discussion recently with Soft, that the main problem ATM is that heroes based on dealing damage with auto-attacks, straight-forward slashing (Which I referred to in my "Wizard vs Warrior role" discussion). Great skillshots needs to be MORE rewarded, or those that doesn't have a condition (Dash doesn't have a real condition, straight-linear damage and mobility is simply not the same as the level of, let's say, Arc Arrow) needs to get their abilities nerfed.

Let's start with Rasputin: This guy got to much, and to good going on, for no real condition. Being able to swap between melee and ranged, and have two fully-powered skillsets on both sides just doesn't fit the game. I would much preferred if he was made to do "stancedancing", like many other heroes in other games (see Jayce in LoL and Invoker in DotA, etc etc). His abilities in both sets should not be as strong as general abilities on other heroes, however they should somehow synergize with eachother, making you able to act as a full, interesting hero if you combine your two stances correctly. In it's current state, Rasputin is just 2 heroes for the price of one, and that is stupid.

Next up is Kuku: While a hero like Kuku is not uncommon in just about any MMO-themed game (the straight-up Warrior style), it just is a bit to rewarded in a game where everyone else demands more conditions to work correctly. Not only does he deal great damage just by attacking and got good mobility but his abilities hits as hard as any Mage-themed hero in the game! Either make him themed on autoattacking (Dash should mainly be a gapcloser, double-X's should deal less damage but reduce armor, etc etc), or make his abilities his main priority but scale down his base-stats for Autoattacking and make his AD-scaling into something else.

And now, Shaka'Zhan: Well, bummer. Seems like someone finally caught up with the fact that one of my favorite heroes is just silly ATM. Yes, I agree, Heretic is way to simple for what he does. Hex is to strong, it's easily one of the, if not the, best disables in the game, and what does it demand? A single click and opponents trying to do something. Hex needs some kind of condition as it is. I don't really have a problem with Ricco or Soul Pylon, it's an intentional combo and it will drain quite a bit of mana. Same with Anchor, it's rather fine. Hacteggon thou? What IS this ability doing here? I have never understood that, and I don't think I ever will. It's just a HUGE, monstrous summon with the only drawback that "It can be killed", which is sorta a common thing amongst Summons anyways. Being abel to move through terrain, having good movementspeed and hitting like a exploding train, this guy is just stupid. Heretic needs a new ultimate that allows him to use his interesting skillset more, allowing him to combo up more than "Combine CC with DUNKMEISTER SUMMON" for sill fights. Got no suggestion on the ulti ATM, but can work on it.

Time for Flisk: Now, I dunno if I agree... I find this hero VERY skill-demanding, and I think his role is just fine. I would just personally want to replace his ultimate and innate since I find both silly. We already have Switcheroo, Blend In is just forcing another ability doing essentially the same in many cases. Camaraderie is... Stupid. It's very conditional and doesn't really interact with the rest of his set. Like with Hactegg, it's basically just a case of dumping a good ability on a random hero. I once again this this is a hero that needs an ultimate that interacts with the rest of his set. Make it that he gains damage while under his Switcheroo buff and just go full-out Assassin on him (without being such a silly hero like Assassin, but one with an ACTUAL SKILLSET). I think Flisk's abilities really got the potential of RoW's dream assassin, quick in and out, risk and reward, without being totally based on just a backstab and stuff.

Hammer Time!: Judicator. Well, I must say that I think Ogake is a better pusher, but Judi is definitely a close second, if not maybe number one. He deals a bit to much damage (Burn debuff is stronk), he reverses damage back to opponents and he can be just STUPIDLY hard to kill. At cost of what? Well... Nothing really, straight-up linear skillshots and a AoE target. This guy needs to get his numbers nerfed on self-cast, but stronger than they currently are (possibly), when he targets an ally. This would make him not only better for organized teamplay, but also not such a powerhouse on his own.

Support Roles: Agreed. ATM, there are to many heroes that got GREAT support potential, but everyone just builds damage on them, and the game encourages it. Sivaz, Saphiel, Fae, these are some of the probably most potent heroes in the game, however, only Sivaz seems to be acting his role (which makes people rage about him being to weak because everyone just wants to aim at personal kills instead of team success.) We should encourage the teamwork-aimed style of these, and some other heroes, rather than just go "Well, or you CAN egoistically just go for damage with that one or two damage skills you have, but since they're your only damage skills, they are REALLY powerful". Teamwork is a measure of great skill, which is the theme of RoW. Going on personal kill-streaks without going for game victory ISN'T.


Grumbletok, out!

[Gahn]

I don’t mind heroes who are classed as “support” to be able to have high damage output, but it should come at a cost if it does. A recurring problem with most support champions (and this isn’t a problem specific to RoW) is that the support components rarely scale with anything other than ability level, and even then one point in the ability is sufficient. Abilities such a Blitzcrank pull, thresh’s lantern or his pull, Bane Elemental’s Nightmare, Dazzle’s Shallow grave, Saphiel’s telekinesis, or Fae’s Haze provide most of their effect with a single skill point, and need neither scaling nor additional levels to fulfill their purpose at any point of the game.

I’d like for support aspects of abilities to have scaling that is distinct from other ability effects, where applicable, but that might be difficult to implement depending on the ability. Some sort of consistency between attributes and the bonuses to spells would be welcome, so that all heroes used the same attribute to increase damage, a different one to increase utility, etc., but that would be a rather intensive remake, and the time might be better spent on other changes.


For Judicator:

• Overall - His abilities, particularly Judgement, could have separate scaling on both the damage and the heal, requiring that he actively choose which of the two he’d rather have.
• Presence of Law - This ability is extremely strong, and plays a large role in making Judi the amazing pusher, and the hard to kill SoB, that he is. Each of the auras are incredibly powerful, and their double-edgedness (is that a word?) is usually countered by Judi’s ability to swap to whichever one suits his situation best. This wouldn’t be so much a problem if they were anything other than aura effects, but this gives him an incredible amount of invisible power. Rather than making the auras double-edged, you could make them have a mana cost, and a strong initial bonus upon cast that would rapidly diminish over time (not sure how well this would work with Judi’s current auras
• Judgement - As mentioned above, I think it would be interesting to have different scaling on the damage and the healing components of this ability. I'm not sure how else the ability could be aimed, but either a decrease in effect per bounce or a bounce limit could be implemented to curb the ability's effect
  
• Presence of Law - This ability is extremely strong, and plays a large role in making Judi the amazing pusher, and the hard to kill SoB, that he is. Each of the auras are incredibly powerful, and their double-edgedness (is that a word?) is usually countered by Judi’s ability to swap to whichever one suits his situation best. This wouldn’t be so much a problem if they were anything other than aura effects, but this gives him an incredible amount of invisible power. Rather than making the auras double-edged, you could make them have a mana cost, and a strong initial bonus upon cast that would rapidly diminish over time (not sure how well this would work with Judi’s current auras
  
• Exculpate - The only issue I really see with Exculpate is that the damage is dealt as a burst. The idea behind the ability is a bit odd in terms of support abilities, because it encourages your opponents to attack the target you shield, rather than deterring them, but I like it quite a bit. I think the main complaint with this ability is that it is often used purely for the damage component, and players will cast it, and try to time it so that it detonates upon entering range of an enemy, providing minimal time for the opponent to react.
  

• Gavel - This ability is incredibly powerful, and a single point is more than enough to completely throw off your opponents, rendering them unable to damage you, and highly susceptible to your own team’s damage. The only downside is that the ability can affect allies, but proper aiming can make this negligible. An attack speed reduction might not feel as crippling as completely disabling their attack, but even then I’d suggest reducing the duration.
• Intervention - This ability suffers from too long a duration, and it sacrifices power because of it. I’d rather see the ability have a shorter duration (~6 seconds), but a more significant effect for both allies and enemies. I like the dual use this ability has, but the ally cast component doesn’t seem to see much use. Playing around with the ability numbers and the duration might also allow for a more meaningful difference between level 1 & 2, than a cooldown reduction (which is very powerful, but adds problems of its own).

For Saphiel:

• Overall - Her big problem, in my opinion, is that wandering eye, telekinesis, and barrier gain little by leveling them, and have either minimal or no scaling at all. This allows her to invest minimal points into these abilities, and to instead focus on psy beam
• Telekinesis - This ability could easily be considered one of the most powerful and versatile abilities in the game because of the range of options and the freedom that it provides. One possibility (although I am a bit hesitant to suggest it), would be to make the distance be affected by (x * Saphiel’s bonus str) - (y * enemy level or stat). This ratio could change with ability level, and it would require that she invest in this ability if she wishes to make optimal use of it. Additionally, I think having a higher base mana cost, and a lower mana cost increase per ability level would increase the likelihood of this ability being leveled early on.
• Barrier - Reducing both the duration and the cooldown of this ability could possibly help make it feel more clutch. The knockback duration could probably use a decrease at early levels, and it could additionally provide an incentive to level this ability, giving Saphiel more choice.

For Fae:

• Overall - Fae is an elusive hero who can both disable her opponents, and avoid them with ease. She seems a bit too well equipped to deal with physical damage oriented heroes because of their typically low mana pool, and the abilities she has at her disposal
• Haze - A relatively easy to land ability that has massive utility, this ability needs to be curbed back in some way. Unlimited blinks along a 100-1750 unit line for 5 seconds provides a massive advantage to her team, and does not provide the Legion team with an effective means of countering it. This ability could be an ultimate due to the utility it provides, and I don’t see many options that would balance it.
• Emerald Wing - My problem with this ability is that it is a mana burn effect, which is an effect that I personally think AoS could without, but I’m not going to delve into that here.
  

For Ogake:

• Overall - I believe that Ogake is one of those problem heroes who has high damage, high survivability, and high utility, and his counter play is a little lacking beyond “don’t stand near the corpses,” and even that counter play has become more difficult since Corpse Explosion was changed to Cremation, which deals damage in a sizable AoE regardless of where the corpses are within it
• Carrion Curse - The duration is a bit too long on this ability, and the effect essentially operates as a reverse Rupture (run or die!). Perhaps reducing the duration, placing a cap on beetles summoned, but making it so that a small number of beetles (no more than 3) are spawned upon cast would make the damage more consistent, retain the interaction with corpses, and would help Ogake out of lane, all the while reducing his maximum damage output.
• Mortal Mastery - This aura is absolutely ridiculous, and I don’t think it should exist as a passive effect. The ability is amazing on its own, requires minimal skill on the part of Ogake, and can only be countered (with knockbacks) by half of the elven heroes, assuming their appropriate abilities are off cooldown. My suggestion would be to make it an activatable that drains an amount of mana per second that increases the longer the ability is active (similar to Swain ult from League of Legends). This would require that the Ogake player pay attention to when it would be optimal to use it, and would prevent him from maintaining it for too long due to the stacking mana cost.

For Heretic:

• Overall - Both Sep & Grum have pretty much summed up what his problems are, so I won’t discuss them here.
  

For Agility Heroes:

• 
  I realize this wasn't mentioned, but I firgured I'd add it to the discussion. I find that part of the problem is that agility heroes scale ridiculously well in RoW due to Agility’s duo scaling of damage & attack speed, and the strengths of on-hit effects such as lifesteal. This is part of the problem with Kukulza, Heretic (to a lesser degree), Assassin, Vamp, and Pythoness. Their auto-attacks scale better than most abilities do, and they also happen to be easier to land. I intend to go on a longer rant about this subject, but projects are currently eating up most of my time.
  

[Softmints]

I broadly agree with everything in (and could have recited most of) this topic. There are definitely weaknesses in many of RoW's hero designs, and I'm committed to addressing them. Usually this is a slow process because new abilities are required, and finding better ones can take time. Sometimes it's slow because I lose focus or get distracted by bugs. However, some of these issues are easy things like ability scaling, which I can and will rectify as soon as possible.

Part of the problem is that I design heroes to be self-sufficient. I design that way because most games are pubs, and that's how pubs get played. If I create an ability with teamwork potential like Camaraderie or Enshrine, historically it gets ignored.

The other part of the problem is that RoW doesn't have items which aren't self-serving. Baton, Ivory Ring, Foghorn, and Tangram don't see much use, even though I suspect 150 gold Baton would be OP in any other moba. There need to be more team-based items, and I'm unsure of how to offer those in a way that they'll get used.

Once I start implementing some of these changes, are you the players willing to accept that certain heroes are going to demand teamwork? The majority of our games are pubs, and I suspect the more independent heroes are simply going to dominate those, leading to very little variety.

I welcome any further discussion on the matter.

[Gahn]

Nerfing the main offenders would likely be painful in the short term, but making them weaker (i.e. more reasonably balanced) would allow you to deal with other heroes who are currently too strong in order to compete with the crazy amount of utility that support-ish heroes currently offer, and would likely make the game easier to balance in the long term.

On a side note/reiterating one of my points: I think it'd be interesting if heroes had to make the choice between maximizing their support aspects or their damage, but that's probably the more difficult road to take, and would likely cause a few headaches trying to create balancing support abilities.

[Grumbletok]

Just as a quick note, I would personally love all encouragement in the game that aims for better teamwork. The game already got lots of combo potential and I'd like to see more like it. However, the problem with abilities like Enshrine and Cammaraderier (spelling!) is that they ONLY work for teamwork. That is basically to say that the hero got one ability less if he's on his own, and that's bad. They should be at their BEST with teamwork, but be somewhat usefull on their own as well.

Oh, and Baton is just not an interesting item. trading items is awkward in WC3 (IMO), and I just don't feel like investing 150 gold in a item that provides the bonus that it does. If someone disagree, please, by all means, prove in a game that Baton is good, because I've never really seen it do anything more than drain 150 gold from the buyer.

[Gahn]

I agree with Grum on both points,

Having abilities that are incapable from functioning without ally input is probably a bigger factor holding back abilities such as enshrine, than the lack of coordination in pubs (not to say that doesn't play a big role either.

The big factors holding back baton for me, are that: a) it uses up an item slot, and b) the item activatables/trading is awkward in wc3. The item itself is extremely powerful, the the wc3 engine makes it a bit too unwieldy to use.

[alyssandra]

I'd use baton more often but, as Gahn said, item swapping with players is a bit clunky in WC3. My pet peeve is having my orders reset, and giving items to another hero often does that. It is a great item idea, and it would probably be OP in another MOBA with its current price as you said.

Oct 8, 2013 21:12:22 GMT Softmints said:

Once I start implementing some of these changes, are you the players willing to accept that certain heroes are going to demand teamwork? The majority of our games are pubs, and I suspect the more independent heroes are simply going to dominate those, leading to very little variety.

I'd also be willing to see more heroes truly dependent. I think it will make gameplay flow better since not everyone is dealing massive damage to each other, and certain targets become more of a priority than others. It'll eventually feel like an AoS rather than a hero arena with these changes.

[Softmints]

I've already changed Enshrine so the first unit gets accelerated teleport speed, which improves the minimum 'one-ally cooperating' case. Camaraderie's effect isn't really applicable to anything other than allied heroes, so making it useful without them and without altering the mettle of the ability is difficult (that is, I don't want players building for one part of Camaraderie but not the other). Also, if you're asking for more teamwork, asking me to give heroes another self-improvement route is a bit contradictory (even though I agree it should happen).

It's already possible to scale most support abilities by boosting radius or duration. Unfortunately it requires either very precise and somewhat restricted hero design or a fundamentally different stats system to have complete control over "support" scaling. I don't think I will accomplish that with RoW.

Baton doesn't trade items anymore!! You click, it picks the closest allied hero in 200 and boost their movement speed by 20% for 6 seconds. The downside is that one baton can't serve two heroes, but the upside is it's convenient enough to actually use.

Please join me in the hero feedback threads for details on the concrete changes as I implement them.