Terrain Overhaul

[Softmints]

In August, I'm planning to do a complete overhaul of RoW's terrain. I tire of seeing every new moba come out with 2-3 lanes, offering no innovation on the genre. So I am looking to try something a little different. Below is a first draft of what might become the new terrain:

Points of interest:

• This terrain has two major lanes along the middle, and two minor lanes along the sides. It is intended that heroes roam freely between the 2 major lanes, perhaps leeching experience from both. The distance between the two will be intentionally small.
• Green circles are "map objectives", which will probably be creep camps like Mercs, but maybe something else.
• Triangles might be "revive points". It's a common pattern in CTF games to have players spawn somewhere different to the thing they're defending, and I might experiment with that.
  

• Here is a map where the outer lanes terminate at the revive points, perhaps pressuring heroes to deal with the lane before reviving, or giving freshly revived heroes a way to distract the enemy with a push on that lane.

Open to thoughts/suggestions.

[Dracula]

I've never made it a secret that I've much preferred the previous terrain (previous to the current iteration of RoW at the time of this post), and there are several reasons for this. I should probably qualify beforehand that the current terrain, as much as I dislike it, is probably not entirely to blame, as the relative inviability of the jungle for many of the versions in this iteration has left no real incentive to roam - more a numbers and gameplay problem than a terrain problem.


What made the old terrain fun for me was some combination of its size and layout that contributed to a sense that the gameplay that occurred on it was substantially more dynamic. There were many different entrances and exits to lanes, resulting in a number of ways you could approach lanes. The size of the map (and thus the distance you had to travel to get to points on the map) was large enough that travel times were non-trivial; however, this also meant that roaming was actually surprisingly meaningful, since affecting the balance of power on a lane in an unexpected way could allow a push or a secure of jungle camps. Incidentally, the mechanics of the time were not nearly lane-emphatic as they are now, so you did not lose out on massive amounts of experience by roaming. Because roaming was viable, people could roam. And because people could roam, and because the map was large enough and had enough paths that you couldn't always guess where a person was at any given time, it made the game much more interesting. If you got ganked on the old map, it was very possible to make it back to the outpost. It was also very possible to die, since you likely had a bit of walking to do (unlike the current iteration, where the troops meet at positions of negligible distance from the towers).


Ultimately, what I would like to see in any new iteration of the terrain is something that brings that dynamic action back. To be honest, I thought the old terrain was basically perfect and would be perfectly happen to see it back, but if that's not happening, I hope the new terrain will at least emulate some of the qualities that made it so good. I hope it's large enough that travel times will be non-trivial, and I hope that the structure of paths through the jungle will make ganking practical. I just like the idea of capitalization, and I feel a small map doesn't really contribute to offensive capitalization well.

[alyssandra]

I think this new terrain can be great; I like the layout of everything so far. As long as the distance between the two middle lanes isn't small enough for heroes like Namek and Pyth to gain exp in one, while sniping at the other (would that even be something that's too good? I could be talking nonsense).

This also opens the door for potentially new objectives aside from creep camps -- although I think creep camps should stay, just in different areas of the map. For example, in Heroes of the Storm, there is a "watch tower" that, after about 3 seconds of a hero standing next to it, grants the team map vision in a considerable AoE around it. However, if an enemy and an ally are on it at the same time, the progress bar just stands still. This particular objective creates: natural conflict that is nearly constant (no downtime like creep camps), good positioning, and clever usages of knockbacks and other skills to keep the enemies off of it during a fight. Something like that would work well in between the two middle lanes, and also lead to some interesting level 1 fights that may encourage the use of the potion that grants an extra skill point. Now, it doesn't have to be a watch tower exactly like Heroes, but some sort of constant objective present in the map that has no downtime attached (unlike creep camps which have that waiting period) can be a very nice feature.

As for the other objectives, I think they should be significantly stronger and more rewarding than RoW's current map. If the wolves, hawks, and golems are staying, perhaps they should be reworked a bit. I think the hawk is actually the best one and fulfills it's job well. However, the wolf seems far too much like a gimmick that might not always work and when it doesn't it's just another sloppy unit. The golems aren't too bad, but they shine way too late in the game and are still much less of a hassle than the hawks IMO. I think Wolf and Golem should gain a lot more HP and new abilities, because one AoE spell often negates them completely.

Suggestions:

Wolf: 50% reduced AoE damage taken, cleaving attack, permanent invisibility while attacking.
Golem: Now a ranged unit that hurls rocks, has an aura that increases damage done to towers for itself and heroes next to it.

These are just minor suggestions and I'm sure others have better ideas. It would be nice, however, if the units made a very noticeable impact. Right now, usually one hero can deal with the creeps in lane as if they are nothing. Sometimes (in the current map) it's even more rewarding just sitting in lane soaking up experience than going for the camps and the team that does the camp loses out because the person sitting in the lane will still come out stronger. Hopefully in the new terrain that changes.

[Grumbletok]

Okay, so, first things first: I've been nagging about a terrain change forever now, and the fact that something like this is brought up really increases my incentive to play the game! While I agree with Drac, I love the original terrain, however, many discussions with Soft on the matter showed that there's some flaws with that design that simply are a bit to hard to resolve ATM, at least with WC3's own engine.

So, for this suggested terrain... I think it seems exciting. A very different take on map layout, it does look like it could be very interesting. We, of course, have to see how the terrain-walls (trees, etc) are placed before totally celebrating, but it's certainly a great leap in the right direction!

As for the other things about the jungle, I have to agree with the other posts, with no doubt. I would much prefer if the jungle was able to sustain a player from each team, allowing a person to stay roaming. That would demand some smaller, easier camps with good, but not overwhelming, gold and XP rewards. It'd also demand good routes through the jungle, that opens more than into the middle of the lane, directly from a camp, or far behind the lane, behind a tower.

As for the revive points, I believe they tend to be in the base since opponents usually don't sit in your base, waiting for you to come out to kill you. If the revive points don't have a Very strong defense, I'd recommend against it.

As for the Watch Tower thing, it's something I've been talking to Soft about as well, and I believe the main problem was that there was no fitting place for such a thing in the current terrain; I objectives point would however be a great idea. While the merc camps and buff camps are great, as such, smaller camps to support the jungler is needed at present time. Notice that with 4 lanes, there is bound to be a lot of people wanting to be able to play a proper 4 people soaking up solo XP, while another roams around, and that should be perfectly viable, in my opinion.

As for the buffs on wolf and golem, I'm not sure if I agree. The fact that the wolf is gimmicky is because it's supposed to be. You're given I choice with which Merc you want, with the intention that they should differ a lot from eachother. Wolfs are great early game and are there to help out with taking down opponent heroes on the lane, making them strong pushers doesn't really suit their roles as the assassins of the jungle.

As for the golem, I really don't think giving it range And bonus damage to turrets is a good idea. I think keeping it melee and give it an aura that reduces tower damage dealt to nearby heroes and itself should be a better idea; It's purpose is to make your team bulky and hard to manage, not to make you steamroll over towers.

Oh, and I am not 100% sure if that is so, but abilities that can be applied, like garrote or whatever it's called now (<.< >.>), should all be useable on jungle creeps, and Sharp damage should not deal 50% damage to the jungle. I personally find crippling AoE moves, just because they can push or clear camps is a sin in itself; if people want to spend their mana and cooldowns on the creeps, they should be fully allowed to, without a massive reduction.

[Softmints]

@Dracula:
The map size will be a bit bigger than current. I would like to bring the main bases slightly closer because I feel that makes it easier to finish games, which tend to drag out in this genre, and RoW in particular. Roaming will be encouraged in the versions to come.

@alyssandra:
I hadn't considered that heroes might snipe across the lane gap. I am assuming there will be 3 heroes on the mid lanes for each team, and since switching 2/1 to 1/2 is so painless, the extra reach won't be as meaningful. It maybe be possible for Pyth to apply pressure to both mid lanes by hiding in the gap between them though.

I actively dislike the "vision meta" seen in many other mobas. Vision is so strong that participation in the meta is mandatory, to the point of becoming a chore. League took a good step in distributing that chore equally among the entire team, but it is fundamentally still a chore. Watch Towers don't change that. This is why RoW has scarce persistent vision.

The constant flux of advantages and disadvantages is something I like about lane-pushing games. Catching an enemy unawares, on low life, or out of position makes fights more exciting. My perception of constantly-available objectives is that players won't attempt the objective if there is any real risk, meaning they do little to encourage action, and particularly in the case of vision, they tend to create safe-zones that actively discourage action.

The centre of the map does seem to warrant something though; I wonder what?! Something contestable despite being pushed in on two lanes? A short-term opportunity? A long-term economy boost? I expressed above my dislike of control points since their combat is too unstructured.

There are many things I like about merc camps, but surely the elegance of choosing your merc is my favourite. But what's the point if the choice is not meaningful? Wolf + cleave is just another passive pushing tool; it barely differs from Hawk. I welcome suggestions, but I prefer to maintain differences between the three. I see mercs as opportunities, which means I do not want them winning games on their own (RoW is not a PvE game), but rather setting up heroes with short-term advantages to exploit. So their balance should always be such that a player thinks "I died to the hero", not "I died to the wolf". These are my current thoughts and I am open to exploring the ideas further.

@Grumbletok:
Always I am considering: what is RoW's jungle adding to the game? In other genre games, I see it subtracting a player. Whatever it takes away from PvP (by being PvE), it must give a satisfactory return. So as I often say, I don't like having enough jungle content that players can make meaningful progress with pure PvE.

If we fundamentally want roaming to be a core part of the game, I could introduce an exp meter. This meter is constantly drained to give exp to the entire team, can be held steady by having 3.5 players on-lane, and fills to max while having 4. Hence, the team can sustain a full-time and a part-time roamer without forcing PvE. Experience from hero kills is added directly.

Revive points create the possibility of camping; something I will not allow. I am worried about them for this reason.

An ability like Stumpy's Petal Bomb has numbers balanced around hitting a hero with 1-2 blasts, since it is rare to hit 3+. Against npcs, hitting all four is trivial. I don't think I should be forced to make Stumpy a super jungler just because he has that ability; hence Sharp damage to balance things out.

---

Please continue the discussion on what you would like to see!

[Gahn]

New map looks pretty good, although I'm leaning more towards the first example. As much as I loved the old map, the crossed lanes made it an absolute headache to end games, as waves would wear down the closer they got to the enemy base. The respawn points are interesting, but, if implemented, I'd rather they be optional - giving player the choice to respawn at base or at one of the points, although that would make it very similar to how players can currently teleport to neutral towers.

Depending on how far the lanes are from each other, the side lanes could be given larger fortifications, or teleporters to help players. You could even experiment with having waygates where the triangles are on the map, but that might make ganking & moving between lanes a bit too easy (perhaps give them a player-specific cooldown or make them require an uninterrupted channel time?). It'd be hard to strike up a balance where roaming is encouraged, and kills grant you a sufficient window to push the lane, but I think roaming being viable would really help make the game feel less static.

I personally wouldn't mind seeing the merc camps go, as I find that the mechanic (particularly in HoTS) increases snowballing by presenting the defending team with a lose-lose situation (do they fight the mercs, and let their opponents capture more camps, or do they contest the camps while their lanes and towers get pushed by merc?) and distracts players when they're ahead by encouraging them to collect camps instead of pushing when they're presented with an opportunity. On a related note, the hawks tend to be the biggest offenders when it comes to passively pushing lanes, as regular creeps are incapable of killing them, and I think having their "jump back" be disabled when no allied heroes are nearby would help keep them in check.

Instead of mercenaries, I'd like to see one big super creep that only focuses enemy structures (similar to Krytos in Strife). I feel that this mechanic works well for creating conflict, as it is a high risk target to first claim in the first place (giving the opposing team ample time and ability to contest it), provides very clear expected behaviour once it has been claimed (push with it/defend against it), and gives an advantage that helps push, but doesn't necessarily help in team fights. Having only one such objective means that there's no distractions once you've claimed it (unlike merc camps, where you run between camps. picking them up), and it creates a clear defining moment where conflict occurs, without distorting it too heavily in favour of one team over the other.

The idea I had been toying around was to make it a cannon guarded by a powerful minion. Killing the minion would alert the enemy team, and would cause the cannon to begin charging for ~15-30 seconds or so. Upon completion of its charging, it would begin to target enemy towers in the middle lane, heavily damaging them (and potentially inflicting a stacking AS slow or disabling their attack) for a set duration. Either during the charging, afterwards, or both, it would be vulnerable to enemy attacks, and the controlling team would either push (while leaving it undefended) or defend it while it did its damage (although the cannon would have no defence of its own, giving them no advantage in a fight), while the defending team could either try to destroy it or fight off the enemy push. The goal would be to create a high risk, high reward objective that helps towards completing the primary objective (destroy the enemy base), but does so in a manner that still allows counterplay, and doesn't give the team an advantage in PvP combat.

Another option would be to make it so that players can channel to empower the cannon as it fires (perhaps make the cannon fire immediately upon capture, but grow in strength over time, with each channel increasing the damage accelaration). This would introduce the risk/reward of increasing damage done to buildings while making you more vulnerable to enemy attacks, and could even introduce the risk/reward of staying near the cannon and charging it faster while weakened from the fight vs its guardian and risking a disadvantaged fight against the opposing team.

Thoughts?

[Sarenarass]

Guess I'll give my very limited insight (as my recollections of playing the old map are very few)... in the current version of RoW no one really uses the jungle. The only time people come together to use it is when they all just happen to be in the same area if they had a team fight or so. 

CAMP REVIEWS: 

The Furbolg One That Awards Gold: I believe the highest awarding "cub" gives 125 gold and each of the surrounding cubs drop a coin so that's 185 gold but unless you're Nerothos or killing the camp after it has sat there since the beginning of the game you will be on about half health and going back on your lane is inadvisable. You usually need to go to your tower to heal or teleport back to the base entirely and by then you probably would've made more by staying on your lane.

Mercenary Camp: The hawk is usually the best (and most annoying option [to defend against]). It pretty much pushes lanes for you and also provides an additional sight bonus to prevent some forms of ganking... however the latter is almost never the primary motive to getting it. Wolf... hero gank. Golem... nobody gets Golem. From here I share Gahn's views in that it's a lose-lose situation to defend against but additionally I'd say 60-80% of the time people are getting these camps it is because they have momentum and they just want to keep the enemy pinned against a wall. They are not picked up to create momentum. I can recall many games where we would have to sit back and defend and all of a sudden we have 3 hawks on each lane and you have to tell people to attack the hawks and not the heroes because if you don't the lane will never get pushed... then they go to kill the hawks and the heroes kill them and so.. zzz.

Buffs Camp: This one is probably the camp I see used the most often. The damage buff is good, the "eat corpses for health" buff is good... the Styx teleport... I've seen a very few people get it but I really don't understand why you would want... all it gives is faster teleport speed? Erm... ok. 

Now, for the jungle itself... I feel its current use is very limited. I don't see it for much more than to get from Point A to be Point B as far as ganking goes. I very rarely bother with the camps... and the jungle is so small (at least as compared to old RoW) with just several narrow openings that if the other team has a Miney I just avoid it entirely. Not even worth bothering with; not even with an eye of newt. (Miney OP)

As for the map pictured in the original post... I'm not sure I like the idea of two lanes so close to each other but I'm also pretty bad at visualizing it as a finished product from the provided picture so I'll just leave the judging of that to someone else.


One idea I particularly liked is Gahn's  "one big super creep that only focuses enemy structures". Mainly because of how it doesn't provide a direct pushing bonus (as Hawk does so well) but can prove a large threat if not taken care of and could create some interesting team fights.

[alyssandra]

I agree that more vision in RoW would be a bad thing. I just tried to use the watch tower example as something that could be potentially useful for the middle of the map; a constant objective if you will. But since you expressed the dislike of constants, I think the current usage of riches every x minutes would probably be for the best, or some other sort of powerup. Or it could simply stay like it is, and only spawn at the beginning of a match. The riches always inspire conflict and create incentive for level 1 battles, which I think is great.

Admittedly, the suggestions I had for the mercs were pretty terrible and simplified and just a conceptual suggestion. However, I do feel that hawks really outclass the other two options. I hold issue with the golems, because as we all saw when they were buffed, they were very strong. Yet, when they are toned down, they are very underwhelming. I suppose it is all about finding the middle ground, but where hawks shine is their very high uptime. Pair that with the high amount of effort it takes for an enemy to kill one, and you have the perfect choice. Compare this with golems who always run forward, and they tend to also contribute less overall than hawks.

I still feel wolves are either too good or too bad, and I suppose it's a risk your team takes by selecting it in the first place. However, in some circumstances, I precisely feel as though I die to the wolf and not the hero assisting it, unless I'm missing what you meant which is possible. Losing 30% of my HP and being slowed which allows someone to catch up to me, for example, kinda feels like the wolf did the work there.

[Grumbletok]

Okay, so, I'll post this while I still got it in my memory, and it might just be something!

Just a thought experiment:
The current "new" look on the terrain, this round map with it's 4 lanes... I know it is what you were trying to step away from, but how about making them 3 lanes again? However! My idea comes from how it looks on the map-suggestion you made; the two dotted lines, marking the two midlanes, really does make it look like one, larger lane. How about if it actually were so? ATM in LPG MOBAs, a lot of people tend to be drawn to push the midlane over the other lanes, with no actual game incentive; it just happens to feel right. Sure, it's most likely easiest for the team to gather up for a push in the midlane, etc etc, but it's nothing major. It just feels like the right choice, the midlane.

So, how about expanding the midlane into a much wider lane. Much larger creepwaves, more XP and gold all around, harder fortifications. On this lane, there'll be spawning siege units, really strong ones, that only focus on taking down towers, and it'll feel like a really proper battlefield in the midlane. The large size of the lane gives room for interesting concepts, like checkpoints where you can add some temporary defense, etc etc, it's up to our imagination.

Now, the sidelanes are small. They spawn normal-sized creepwaves and got single-tower fortification. Essentially, they feel much weaker, even though they're the lane we're used to ATM. These lanes provide pockets for those who wish to farm up a bit more undercover, a bit like the jungle in other games, but with actual game progress by lesser pushes.

Also, and this is the idea that really got me interested in this, well, idea. How about if the big objective in the game, in the midlane, is the ability re-route a seigeunit creepwave to one of the sidelanes?? That siege unit would cut through those poor sidelanes like butter, giving a freeway into the opponent's base, making a Very attractive objective, and still being purely tactical; You have to take proper advantage off it. It's not just a moneygain or a large buff, it's actual game-progress at stake! As soon as the siege unit wave is going onto the chosen sidelane, the opponents have to react quickly and deal with it, or your team will gain a great advantage. However, this might just be an opportunity for the opponents as well, with the right heroes, holding back said wave and the heroes pushing it, while leaving someone else to push the actual midlane or the other sidelane.

I personally think this could be one of the most interesting ways to play a LPG MOBA, one where the points of, Midlane Matters, Progress Matters and Tactical Objectives, matters more than absolute gold advantage or grabbing single kills.

After all, we're at the middle of a war in RoW, aren't we? Then, IMO, it should properly feel like it, like we deal with threats from the enemy army, not just it's commanders.

What do you guys think? Am I totally out of my mind here, or might I actually have stumbled upon a really great idea??

[Softmints]

@Gahn:
Very valid points regarding map objectives, I completely agree with not letting teams farm objectives indefinitely to maintain a lead. The time between a game being "decided" and the victory conditions being met is too long in most lpgs, because teams want to maximise their advantages before making a move, which usually means playing an economy game. HotS implemented a hard "resource advantage limit" to try overcome this (NOT an elegant solution).

We discussed ways in which a team might be encouraged to attempt the finishing blow sooner, reducing time spent in an already-decided game. One way was to simply have a shortage of economic objectives, so after establishing an advantage, there's nothing left to do but push. That might work with adjustments to RoW's mercs. Another is with a "Krytos-style" objective that creates an opportunity too big to squander.

I also brought up the idea of teams having a "super-meter" which expresses their "advantage". Teams can empty their super-meter to summon a "Krytos" (big super-troop that focuses buildings) with power depending on the super-meter used. The catch is that the underdog team can force their opponents to use the super, forcing a fight before the meter gets unbeatably large. So teams can't sit on an advantage forever. This idea is very abstracted, ask me about it in more detail if you're interested.

The cannon-tower feels a bit too much like a flat-ground fight to me, but I agree with your criticisms of HotS's cannons that can't be stopped. For the reasons Drac listed, I don't think waygates will be included. Neutral towers, maybe.

@Sarenarass:
I agree the current camps are messy.

@alyssandra:
I don't like it to be a constantly available objective, and periodic ones are weird too because an arbitrary beat has now been introduced to the game. I would be more open to maybe Riches, but they respawn 3 minutes after being taken instead of every 3:00 on the game clock.

Hawks will lose their retreat (and some of their vision) if no allied hero is nearby. PvE victory is not supposed to be part of RoW! Wolves deal 15% maxlife, which in practice seem to be just enough assistance for players to turn into a kill. The wolves probably don't need as much attack damage (and passive pushing) as they currently have. Reducing the supply of mercs (adjusting camp respawn times/conditions) might help discourage the Air Force strategy.

@Grumbletok:
I don't like having a bigger midlane, because it affects pathing and aiming. Consider Arc Arrow or Spirit Vessel on such a lane! I don't think it would work for RoW, but EotA explores this idea on the Kedge's Landing map, go check it out. The reasoning behind having two curved midlanes separated by a pathable treeline is that heroes can easily gank between them, encouraging lots of action. The side-lanes on this terrain are intended to be used as you described: pockets for farming, but also with push potential. So maybe some objective that can improve pushing on those lanes would work.

[Softmints]

So where does all this discussion lead? Here is my current vision of objectives in RoW:

• Two minor objectives on each half of the map.
  These will probably be creep camps. RoW currently has three different types of camp, which I think is one too many. So instead, these two minor camps will be identical. I might like to use the "last one to die" mechanic here again. Saren mentions that often after clearing camps heroes need to go back to base, so how about having one result be a Tonic? This would help keep heroes in the fray. What would people like to see for the other two options? Or should Tonic + some other modest bonus always be the result for clearing the camp? This might make a dynamic replacement for healing under towers. The camps could be placed so one is close to each team's tower on-lane, but not so close that it would be hard to gank.
  
  
• One medium objective on each half of the map.
  Probably in the form of merc camps with some refinements (people seem to dislike golem's concept). They are intended to be tackled by more than one hero, and create opportunities for heroes on the team that claims them. As long as they are not too plentiful in supply, they should be a good supplement to the game.
  
  
• One decisive objective.
  This should ideally be located in the centre of the terrain, but I want that treeline to be a gank route. If it's a creep camp, maybe have heroes pray at an alter to summon the mega-creep. But it doesn't have to be hostile to heroes! An AI for it might proceed loosely as follows:
  

1. Do all/most heroes in 900 radius of me belong to the same team?
2. If yes, walk towards those heroes, or if they aren't in the direction of an enemy building, walk towards the enemy base. If not, do nothing or hit a nearby building.
   
3. If there is a structure nearby, attack it!
4. If no heroes are nearby, vanish.
   
   Teams can escort the megacreep towards an enemy base, which has direct player involvement, and because they are moving, there is constantly changing positioning and combat opportunities. This sounds like it might be fun?
   

I hadn't thought about it before, but drawing a line between economy and the jungle could be interesting. That is, you can't hole up in there and play economy, because the economy is exclusively on the lanes/hero kills. If the exp-meter I mentioned earlier (or something like it) were in operation, then there is still room for roaming. You would only decline to roam if your lanes were having trouble and the meter was running low. It would also allow for frequent rotations to tonic camps.

---

Edit: I did a mockup of where these objectives might go. I decided to include an extra minor/healing camp (H) in each jungle for the mid lanes to use. You can enter/exit the central column from any point on the lane so I blurred the paths there. I'm still not happy with the outer paths yet.

[Grumbletok]

Just want to point out that I think a tonic drop every time you kill a camp in the jungle sounds ideal, unless you simply make the camps less of a hazard to kill, of course... But, I like the idea of tonic+ something else, would be nice to see in action, methinks.

Oh, and that new mock-up is beautiful, I wanna try that terrain...

[Softmints]

I would also like to put forward the possibility of adding environmental features and hazards to the map. I don't think RoW is under any pressure to innovate in this area, but I don't mind experimenting either.

• Vision:
  As many of you know, I am not a fan of the vision meta seen in other lpgs. Vision is so useful that participation in securing vision is almost mandatory. Hence my choice to exclude wards and most persistent vision from the game. But that's at the macro scale; here we discuss the micro.
  
  To what extent do we want heroes flickering in and out of vision? The current layout creates very reliable vision: lots of unobstructed corridors, and if you want to hide, you move behind a corner. Most vision is bilateral, it's rare that a unit doesn't know it can be seen. This generally allows both players to be involved in aiming, and in dodging.
  
  Many players enjoy juking: there is a great feeling of exitement when tricking your enemy, and a great deal of satisfaction upon catching them. I would be concerned though, that there's too much reward for running around randomly? It's not really a core skill I want to test.
  
  Mechanically, DotA and League both feature one-way vision (cliffs, brush). I don't like tree-juking as seen in DotA, because it requires too much knowledge of the terrain. Brush is a solid improvement, though I dislike that it's strictly advantageous to be in the brush. The positioning of brush on lanes also weirds me out, perhaps because (vision being powerful) I feel it compels players to constantly risk checking it?
  
  What would you like to see for RoW's vision philosophy? Keep it, or change it?
  
• Hazards:
  RoW is the only lpg I know of that has environmental hazards. The most commonplace of course is trees, since around 50% of RoW's heroes can deal knockback damage. But beyond that, we also have Eggs and Kegs. The positioning and quantity of these hazards has fluctuated over the versions, generally I have placed them without much intent.
  
  The most interesting interaction with hazards is the eggs on the side lanes, which are particularly deadly because they inflict poison quite far from safety. They are usually leveraged by Assassin, who can also use the ones at the bends on mid lane, because they are frequently passed by low-life Legion heroes.
  
  I feel like there is greater potential for environmental hazards, particularly for heroes like Geomancer, Assassin and Mineslayer, who need to take advantage of their environment. Any thoughts on how these could be placed to make them more meaningful?
  
  There is also the option of passive terrain features like swampy ground that slows, but I feel that would annoy players too much.
  
  
• Interaction:
  Way back in DotA Outland, players could raise/lower bridges by hitting a switch, changing whether or not the river was pathable. That feels like such a cool feature: you could save allies or trap enemies with the right timing. It's nice for teamwork.
  
  RoW is a map with all tree-walls because I liked the idea of being able to cut your own paths, though it isn't that commonly used. Sky Cradles are another interactive map element that generates interest; it lets players snipe runners, quickly join a push, or switch jungles.
  
  While working on the jungle for the current terrain, I wanted to make sure junglers couldn't escape too easily. So I added kegs with their delayed chain reaction to slow down fleeing heroes, and create one-way ganking paths. I liked the feature, but people found it too difficult to move around the map, so I opened those paths and now kegs are scarce.
  
  I think kegs are pretty cool, but maybe there's room for new interactive map elements. I don't mean objectives, just features which add a little depth to positioning and creativity. Maybe some day Psychic will be throwing kegs at her enemies!? I'll throw some silly ideas down:
  
  
  • You can bend back a branch and smack an enemy hero by letting go of it.
    
  • Attack an Altar to spend a little gold for a little healing.
  • Attack a Snowman to make your next attack within 6 seconds a snowball that chills.
    
  • Scarecrows scream whenever any nearby hero uses an ability, damaging stuff that's beside them.
  • Attack a cage to release a beast that indiscriminately attacks the closest thing to it for a few seconds.
  • Hit a switch to raise spikes in an area opposite where you stand from the switch (like Thunderbolt)
    
  
  I don't believe spamming these everywhere is a good thing, but having 1-2 hazards that are fairly consistent, or 1 major interactive element like bridges, might be cool.
  

Keep up the contributions folks, this has been a very productive thread so far!

[Grumbletok]

Okay, so... On the vision part, I believe people know how I stand; I think vision should be an aspect that could be manipulated and controlled, it adds a lot of strategy to the game.

About the environmental hazards, I like them, however I would like non-breakable walls/ledges as well.

About Interaction, well. I do like the idea, I find interaction with elements of the map to be one of the more interesting things about a game, see the flags in Prime World, as an example.

[Gahn]

I like the "tug-of-war" super-minion concept, but I'd suggest making it only attack towers, and only be attacked by heroes and towers. You could have it be pushed by both minions and heroes (perhaps with heroes counting as more for determining which direction it goes), and give it movement speed equal to the creep waves.

I wouldn't mind having more temporary vision / skillshot based vision. Abilities/items that would have a long cooldown and require aiming on the part of the player. That aside, I'd prefer to keep RoW vision similar to what it is atm. Wards & bush are yucky in my opinion.

It also looks like Strife has just (as of today) implemented a system similar to your exp bar idea. Could keep an eye out for how that plays out, as they also implemented it to encourage roaming.

[Softmints]

The first iteration of the new terrain has been released in 72a. Some notes:

• Troop balance seems to have changed despite no numerical differences, favouring Elves. I decreased Dryad damage to compensate.
• This is probably because the troops spread out more due to walking further/more bends.
  
• Waves also snowball now, which I dislike. Towers take a lot of collateral damage from unmanned troop traffic, which I dislike. HotS introduced tower ammo to combat this, I'm not sure how I'll address it.
  
• The side-paths on the terrain still feel awful, they will get more work.
• I didn't really know how to approach the central treeline, so I tried interweaving clumps of trees. Probably it can be improved.
• The two mid lanes are easy to mix up. I feel like making the dividing treeline into a swamp or a river would help with telling them apart.
• Obviously early drafts are not pretty, I may pretty it up some other time.
  

Let me know what you think!